Editor – Derek Holland
In the ever-evolving landscape of television, few series manage to capture the complexities of human emotions while maintaining an appealing balance between humor and gravity. “Bad Sisters,” an Irish dramedy, is one such show. Its unique ability to engage audiences with its attention to detail and complex character narratives is a testament to the creative minds behind it.
In this episode of The Rough Cut, editor Derek Holland delves into the creative process behind the show. He discusses the unique elements that made the first season a hit, such as the character of JP and the audience’s unified hatred towards him. Derek shares insights about the talented team of writers, directors, and cast that brought the show to life. He also talks about the challenges of working remotely in Season One during COVID-19, and the evolution of his role from a latecomer in the first season to leading the editing team in Season Two. The discussion touches on the balancing act between comedy and drama, the intricate storytelling, and the importance of authenticity and cultural nuances in the series. Additionally, Derek highlights the pivotal moments and significant scenes that shape the narrative, offering a glimpse into the meticulous work that goes into creating a compelling TV show.
DEREK HOLLAND
Derek Holland is an Irish film/tv editor and a member of BAFTA, Irish Screen Editors and British Film Editors. His latest projects include Sharon Horgan’s Bad Sisters Season 1 and 2 for Apple TV+, The Chemistry of Death for Paramount+ and Academy Award long-listed short film Room Taken, for director TJ O’Grady Peyton.
Less recent work includes award winning feature films The Drummer and the Keeper and A Brixton Tale and the documentary A Fanatic Heart, which premiered at the Telluride Film Festival. Derek loves working with bold, collaborative people, both at home and abroad.
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The Transcript
This interview transcript is edited for length and clarity. To hear the full discussion in its original form, please listen to the podcast.
Derek
Can we dive right in? Can I speak openly?
Matt
Absolutely, Derek.
Derek
Great. I think the magic of season one that we discovered was that within the first 10 minutes of the show, every character wanted to kill JP, and so did everyone watching at home. This created a unique bond between the audience and the characters, all united in their desire to see JP dead. Even though viewers knew from the start that he was dead, it didn’t diminish their eagerness to see how it happened. In an era of streaming where we don’t all watch at the same time, this became a great water cooler topic. Everyone hated JP so much that it fueled the show’s success in the first season, which was an unexpected outcome.
Matt
Derek, you and your team did a lot of things right. One thing you might regret is emailing me about the show in advance and discussing what we would talk about, because now I can use some of your words against you.
Derek
Oh, great.
Matt
You mentioned that the real joy of the job was in the craft details. What do you mean by that?
Derek
I meant two things. First, the show creators are incredibly talented. Sharon is an amazing writer, and she hired brilliant directors who are great leaders. The casting was excellent, and all the heads of departments, from DPs to composers to hair and makeup, were very strong. I’ve never worked on a show where the material was so rich in every way. And that’s before even mentioning the cast, who fully embodied their characters and brought so much joy. The daily rushes were a marvel to work with.
Second, in the edit, we were given time to work with the rushes. TV schedules can be more compressed than feature schedules, but on Bad Sisters, we had the luxury of time to really refine the material and work with our directors. We could hone scenes, even start over if needed, to create something truly great. This is a luxury we don’t always have in TV due to tight deadlines.
Matt
Not only are you the only editor to have cut both seasons of Bad Sisters, but you also went from doing three episodes in season one, two of them as an additional editor, to leading the team and cutting four episodes in season two. Let’s start by talking about how you got on the show initially and what led to your increased role in season two.
Derek
I was fortunate. I wasn’t on the show at the beginning of season one. I live in Ireland, and the post-production was based in London. Season one was shot about 50/50 between Ireland and the UK. Most exterior locations were in Ireland, while studio interiors and some office locations were in London. Sharon is based in London, and this was during COVID and lockdowns, so most of the team worked remotely.
I got lucky because there were production delays due to COVID, and they were behind schedule in the edit. They needed an extra editor for pickups. I was working on another job with the same post supervisor, Dee Collier, which was finishing at a time that lined up with when Bad Sisters needed someone. I had no prior dealings with Sharon, but I had met Dearbhla Walsh, the lead director, on a couple of Zoom calls during COVID. When work initially stopped, I started doing Zoom courses to teach directors and editors how to work remotely, as I had been doing that for about five or six years before COVID. I had moved to a town called Dungarvan, two hours from Dublin, and wanted to work remotely with directors. I was quite tech-savvy, using various tools like cloning drives and Zoom. When COVID hit, everyone wanted to know how to keep working, so I ran Zoom courses in Ireland through Screen Ireland. I met Dearbhla on one of those calls, and she was initially suspicious of remote work, thinking it was a way for producers to exclude directors. I reassured her that producers were already doing that. Meeting Dearbhla on that Zoom call might have kept my name in her mind. So, the post supervisor pitched me to help on season one.
I read nine or maybe all ten scripts in about twelve hours before the call to do episode six. I then had a Zoom call with Sharon and her producer, Faye Dorn, during Sharon’s lunch break while she was shooting. I remember her eating a sandwich while I mostly said positive things, but I also mentioned a couple of concerns. I got hired to take on episode six remotely. They sent me a salon sync box, which syncs up with the NEXIS, and I did two days of work on episode six. Then I got a call from Dearbhla saying they needed help on episode one. Things were getting tight, and they had sent episode one to Apple for the producers’ cut while shooting pickups for episodes two and three. The block one editor, Isobel Stephenson, was overwhelmed with work, trying to cut incoming pickup scenes and address difficult notes on episode one. Dearbhla asked me to take a look at episode one and show her what I could do in two days. I spent a week working on episode one, addressing Apple’s notes, which were mostly about tone in the first ten minutes. I had previously questioned Sharon about the opening sequence, a beautiful five-minute flashback of the sisters as children, which felt like a different type of show compared to the rest of the series. Apple’s notes had a similar vibe, so Sharon and Dearbhla let me try to fix it. Ultimately, we removed the opening sequence entirely, and the show now opens with JP in the coffin with an erection, setting the tone immediately. The beautiful documentary-style opening didn’t fit the show’s tone, and we eventually used about twelve seconds of it in the final scene of season two as flashbacks, which delighted Dearbhla.
In season one, I took ownership of episode four, helped with episodes one and two, and worked a bit on episodes seven and nine. I got to work with all three directors, the producers, and Sharon. Coming in late, I had fresh enthusiasm and energy, which was a contrast to those who had been on the job for eight or nine months working remotely. I was lucky in that way.
Matt
Season one was a big hit, and there are high expectations for season two. You might have been worried about being too negative with your feedback, but it paid off, leading to a bigger role in season two. There are four editors for season two, right?
Derek
Yes, we have four editors. We began with three. There were three blocks, three directors, and three editors initially. I was doing block one with Dearbhla Walsh. Mike Holliday and I shared episode four due to scheduling and time constraints. Mike was our second block editor working with Stacey Gregg, and Matthew Gray was our third block editor working with James Griffiths. We knew a squeeze would come at some point, so we hired Rob Kirkwood, a young editor, to assemble block three before Matt came on. Rob was only meant to be on the show for about six weeks but ended up staying for six months. He took episode five as an independent episode and did a fantastic job. I ended up cutting episode eight because it had a lot of flashbacks and tie-ins with episodes one and two. Rob did the full assembly on episode eight, and much of his work remains in the final cut.
Matt
Sharon mentioned that season one was ten episodes, and season two is eight, yet it didn’t feel any easier and took the same amount of work and time. Do you agree, and why do you think that was the case?
Derek
I think it’s because the story in season one has an arc from beginning to end. For season two, Sharon didn’t take the easy route of recreating the formula of season one. She didn’t want to introduce another clear antagonist for the sisters and the audience to hate and spend ten episodes trying to kill them. She wanted to tell a whole new story, which created more work for herself. She found ten episodes of season one to be a long process, as she’s used to making shorter six-part, half-hour shows. As a writer and showrunner, a shorter process is less frustrating because there’s more forward momentum. I wasn’t on season one for the entire stretch, so I didn’t experience that frustration and fatigue. Coming in late, everything was fresh and exciting. I’ve worked on features before, and they can go on forever. In season two, I worked with all three directors, which recharged my batteries and brought a new dynamic. Sharon doesn’t have that luxury; she’s involved from the first draft to the final broadcast, handling writing, producing, starring, and overseeing every department. The amount of PR she has to do after the show airs is immense. Those of us in the trenches don’t have to do as much work as Sharon, so it doesn’t feel overwhelming.
Matt
You had a lot of work too, cutting episodes 201, 202, 204, and 208. Does it fall on you to keep things in sync story-wise?
Derek
Coming into it, I felt the biggest downside of season one was that everyone was working remotely and siloed, with little interaction between blocks and personnel. This made the show more difficult to make and put a lot of strain on Sharon to be the only glue holding it together. Starting season two, I hoped we could be more collaborative and fluid, like the teams on Euphoria, Sex Education, and I May Destroy You. To some extent, we achieved that. I had an advantage, having worked on season one and knowing Dearbhla and Sharon’s taste and style. This was useful to share with the rest of the team. Cutting episodes one and eight, which have material in common, required me to read all eight scripts early and keep up with redrafts. This is rare when working on a contained block of the show because it’s a lot of work. So, I had to be across everything to some extent. Mike cut his episodes independently, and I was a bit involved with Rob on episode five. I barely saw episodes six and seven because Matt was very capable, and those episodes were always going in the right direction. I was also extremely busy at that time, so I didn’t have time to check in on Matt, and he didn’t need anyone checking in.
Matt
Each episode of Bad Sisters reminds audiences that the show is based on a Belgian series called Clan. Did you find it useful or necessary to get familiar with that series?
Derek
I watched the first episode between working on seasons one and two. I didn’t know it existed when I started working on season one, and people kept telling me I didn’t need to see it. Sharon is always complimentary about it because it provided the source material for this fantastic show. Clan’s structure and character dynamics are similar to season one, with the hook of a dead character and the mystery of who killed him. But the characters are different. Sharon took the structure and framework, relocated it to Ireland, and added Irish elements, making it feel like a different show. Clan is more farcical, with a Chinese gang element and more deaths, making it more slapstick. At a certain point, Sharon took the structure and narrative and made it her own.
Matt
I need to watch Clan. You said that Sharon adapted it to the Ireland she knows, making Bad Sisters authentically Irish. However, there are colloquialisms and cultural aspects that may not be immediately recognizable to foreign audiences. Was that something you had to consider?
Derek
We tested this with our post team in London, who were mostly English. They constantly asked us how to pronounce Irish names and were baffled by some terms like “wagon” and “geebag.” We realized many of these colloquialisms didn’t matter. Just as we don’t need to understand every term in American shows like It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia or Breaking Bad, foreign audiences don’t need to understand every Irish term. Some terms might be Googled out of curiosity, but they don’t affect the show’s understanding. We were more concerned with bigger story elements, like whether foreign audiences would understand a character like Angelica, a busybody common in small Irish communities. We weren’t sure how well that would translate, but it seems to have worked well.
Matt
What is the sport that Blanaid plays?
Derek
Oh, hurling.
Matt
I thought it was called camogie.
Derek
Yes, you’re right. Camogie is the women’s version of hurling, with almost identical rules. Hurling might be more known around the world because the men’s sport is bigger. It’s like a cross between field hockey and lacrosse, but without a net on the stick. I’m working with an American editor who used to play ice hockey and is eager to see a hurling match because he thinks it’s the fastest, most violent sport he’s ever seen.
Matt
Episode one of season two is tricky because you have to set up the story and connect it back to season one. Sharon mentioned that the wedding alone was like a 300-minute cut. How long was the assembly of the first episode, and what were the most challenging aspects of cutting it down?
Derek
That was a lot of work. The script was great, but there were many jobs to do. We had to pick up with the characters two years later, fill in the gaps without explaining every detail, and introduce two key new characters. One character is an antagonist, and the other will eventually become one, so there was a lot of smoke and mirrors involved. Season two turns dark quickly, and we wanted to let Grace and her sisters have some joy in episode one before things get dark. We wanted to embrace Grace’s happiness at her hen party and wedding before it all comes crashing down. This took time, and we had to balance these moments with moving the plot forward. There were some lovely scenes in the wedding that got cut, some that told more of Grace’s backstory with Angelica, and some that showed Roger’s brooding. Most of Roger’s scenes were reduced to shots of him drinking, carefully placed to hint at something coming. The wedding dance scene was the inciting incident for the entire season, where Roger tells Grace he can’t keep the secret anymore. Sharon and Dearbhla did a beautiful job with that scene, capturing the dynamic of the show. The sisters step in to protect Grace, and Angelica watches like a bird of prey. Episode one was all about getting to that scene with enough setup for the new characters and enough joy before everything shatters.
Matt
If you’re up for it, I’d like to expound on some of the things you just said. The show is all about finding balance. If it’s too slapstick, poignant moments won’t work. Were you ever concerned with the comedy being too broad and betraying the true nature of what these characters were going through?
Derek
Yes, we were concerned. It’s a delicate balance. With the new characters, we had to be careful. Loftus and Houlihan are a comedy duo, and their scenes are mostly self-contained, but we had to keep a cap on their silliness. Angelica was another character we had to be careful with. Fiona Shaw did a great job bringing nuance to the busybody character, avoiding tropes. In my first assembly of episode one, I included the funniest moments, but watching the flow, it became too broad. Some of the funniest lines got cut to maintain the balance. We had to be disciplined about not leaning too much into comedy or grief. Episode three was the trickiest because Grace’s death is tragic, but the show still has to entertain. Sharon made good choices, like opening with the saddest scene of the sisters hugging but quickly getting the plot moving again. She chose scenes that fit the show’s tone, like the sisters choosing Grace’s final outfit, which could be both sad and funny.
Matt
You start season two with five sisters and then, just four. How do you balance storylines for each character without leaving anyone out for too long?
Derek
A lot of that work is done in writing. Sharon is very aware of balancing the characters. In season two, the sisters spend more time together, simplifying the storylines. Season one was more complicated with individual storylines and more of their personal lives. The ten episodes allowed for more focus on each sister’s impact by The Prick. In season two, with Grace’s death, the sisters are more united in solving the mystery. The new characters, like Angelica and Roger, also helped by being together in most scenes. Sharon’s writing and some restructuring in the edit helped balance the storylines.
Matt
Sharon Horgan, co-creator and showrunner, writes roughly half the episodes and stars in the show. Tell me about working with her in the edit room.
Derek
Sharon is phenomenal. We met her at tone meetings and table reads, but she was mostly on set acting and overseeing everything. We didn’t see her in the edit until block one finished. She’s a ferocious emailer, sending notes at all hours. She trusted her directors during shooting, especially Dearbhla Walsh. Once shooting wrapped, Sharon loves the edit suite. She spent a lot of time in the edit on her other shows like Catastrophe. She’s quick with ideas and loves rewriting in the edit. Keeping up with her can be a challenge, but she’s a problem solver and makes scenes rich with off-screen ADR that she performs for us. Initially, I was nervous working with her because of my respect for her work, but she’s lovely and productive. It’s a shame she has so many other jobs on set that we don’t have more of her in the edit.
Matt
We should also talk about the last episode. In episode eight, we see what happened with Grace that night of her death, filling in the blanks of scenes from earlier episodes. How do you handle cutting scenes that play out in different episodes?
Derek
That was interesting and challenging. Dearbhla shot many of the nighttime scenes with Grace and Ian. One of my favorite scenes is when Grace tells Ian she killed JP. Owen McDonnell, who plays Ian, did an amazing job with his reaction, which had to serve both episodes one and eight. In episode one, he looks shocked, but in episode eight, we see it in a new context, thinking about his plan being exposed. We didn’t want to withhold too much from the audience about what Grace was doing, as it could be frustrating. We showed as much detail as possible, like her dirty hands and getting in the car. We made it a musical sequence to entertain the audience and avoid frustration. James, our block three director, shot extra bits for episode eight to flesh out the sequence. Episode eight was still being written when Dearbhla was shooting, so we didn’t have all the details initially.
Matt
It’s all about balance, and you and the team did a great job balancing comedy and grief, working in different characters, and making a satisfying story. I’ll leave you with one last question: Who’s funnier in the cutting room, Sharon or Bono?
Derek
I don’t think I need to answer that, do I, Matt?
Matt
No, I guess you don’t.